From Fear to Flourishing: Lessons in Courageous Culture Change

Delighted to have all of you here. Happy holidays. I hope that there your stress is minimized and your joy maximized during the season. I'm delighted to be here with you to talk with Ann Edwardss. Ann is a, um, former client of The Pacific Institute, and I say former because she is the now retired former CEO of Sacramento County.

Yes, the county of Sacramento is what I'm speaking of. And, uh, that's a great big place in California. She was the head person there for, uh, she worked in, in one of the departments and then was elevated up to the CEO and spent a number of years with dramatic success. Um, and I won't steal her thunder. I'd love for her to talk a little bit about that.

So, Anne, welcome. Thank you for joining. Thank you, Richard. It is such a pleasure to be here and nice to see all of you, uh, joining us. So thank you so much for being here.

I'm excited indeed. Me too. Me too. So, this is a fireside chat. We don't have prepared questions or answers.

We're going to go where our fancy takes us. And let's start maybe, and by just hearing a little bit about how you got into this whole world. Like what does, what's the job of the chief executive of a county? What are you responsible for? Uh, well, in a word, everything.

Uh, but that's obviously too broad. Um, you know, the primary responsibility of the county executive is really the operational leader of the county, uh, responsible for a budget. You know, we had a $6 billion budget, 13,000 employees. Um, and I can't even remember how many, 20, 20 plus departments, uh, you know, each led by a department head. Uh, I had four Deputy county executives working for me, and they each ran groups of departments, uh, social service person, uh, uh, community services or sort of municipal, uh, infrastructure type of person.

Uh, and then a justice, law, justice, uh, person. And so, uh, really just responsible for the overall operations of the county and, um, the budget. And then I worked for an, an elected board of five board members, members. Um, and so, you know, tremendous responsibility, uh, to the board as well. Um, you know, they set policy and we implemented.

Mm-hmm. Um, and so that, that sort of a, a short version of what my responsibilities were. So counties in terms of their sort of, um, executive oversight, uh, were talking just before that, if you're sort of running a city, you're worrying a little bit more about infrastructure. The county is much more about the humans who live in it. Can you say more about those different elements?

Yeah, so the county does, um, some of that infrastructure work as well because there are many cities within the county, but there's also large areas that are what we call unincorporated, meaning there's no city. And so the counties do provide municipal services or that water, garbage, transportation, you know, roads, all of that. So we did do that, but counties in Californiare solely responsible for all of the health and social services, uh, programs. And so, you know, we ran, um, many, many programs regard related to health social services. We ran all the aid programs for, um, people on Medicaid, um, food stamps, um, you know, employment readiness.

Uh, we ran child protective services, adult protective services in-home supportive services, mental health, substance abuse. So all of those things are only the responsibility of the county and not cities. And the county provides those services to everyone in the county, even if they reside in a city.

Hmm. Oh, and homeless services, I can't forget. Homeless services are part of that social service array as well. Now, to be fair, some count some cities also now, uh, provide shelters and things like that for their residents because homelessness is such a huge problem. Mm-hmm.

So these are like, these are really serious issues for people that in some cases, just by the accident of where they were born into whom by themselves, in, in situations where they, they actually need this kind of support. What got you into that world in the first place? Well, that's a really interesting question. Uh, when I was a little girl, my dad used to always tell me, um, I don't care what you do in life, but do something meaningful. So that was sort of drilled into me from a very young age to do meaningful work.

Um, and then when I went to college, I decided to major in social work, um, just because, you know, the helping profession, um, really called to me and I think because of my parents, who my parents were both educators. And, um, so I did that. And then I went on to get a master's degree in counseling and I became a licensed marriage and family therapist. Mm-hmm. And so I started my professional career as a therapist, uh, working with severely emotionally abuse, uh, severely emotionally disturbed children and youth.

Um, and then I started with the county as an entry level mental health manager. Um, and so that's just what got me, you know, interested in this kinds of, this kind of work. Um, so I ran the Health and Human Services Department, um, before running the social services department, which is where I did the bulk of my work with, uh, The Pacific Institute. Gotcha. So talk about your career.

I mean, you, you went from doing something incredibly personal hands-on, and it must have been really difficult, I can't imagine, to sort of increasing levels of leadership and department head work. And then somebody tapped you on the shoulder. How in the heck did you do all that? Well, you know, it just sort of evolved over time. I was 26 years with Sacramento County, so I did a lot of different things.

I started out as mental health manager. Um, and I really liked that particular role because I was responsible for access to services. So, you know, I had a team that really helped individuals in the community access the mental health services that they needed. So even though I wasn't doing that direct really intimate work, um, I felt like I was helping a lot of people by ensuring access. Hmm.

Um, from there, again, it's like people often ask me, well, how did this happen? Because I never aspired to be, you know, at the next level. I, I really just enjoyed the work that I did, but I was invited to apply for a, you know, division manager position, which is, you know, a next level up. And, and then same thing as I was the mental health director for a while. Um, and I was often invited into those roles and I was initially afraid that it would be too far away from the work.

But I really found that by working with staff that reported to me, that I really felt like that was making a difference for the people we served, um, because I was helping them, uh, do a good job at what they were doing. And, um, so I just, I, I, I can't say enough how much I've left every single role that I had within the county. Um, the one that took me completely by surprise was, you know, Thanksgiving break a number of years ago, the chair of the board, we had a, uh, a county executive that left and there was, um, let's just say there was a lot of toxicity at, at the county. And were all wondering, okay, well, who, which one of the deputies are I going to tap to take over? And I got a call over Thanksgiving break asking if I would be interim.

And I'm like, I can't even tell you what I said in my head 'cause it's not appropriate in a professional group. Um, but I'm like, really me? Um, so that took me by surprise and I really needed some time to think about that. Um, 'cause in my mind I didn't know enough. I knew lots about all the health and social service programs

'cause in some way, shape or form, I had touched all of them. But, you know, when I think about water and garbage and, uh, roads and developed land use, I'm like, I, I don't know if I can do that. Um, it was actually my husband that said, what you do in social services is far more complicated and than any of the other stuff the county does. Mm-hmm. You're smart, you can learn it, but what the county needs is a, a good leader and you are good at that.

Mm-hmm. Um, so I, I said yes, started almost immediately and, um, took them nine months. I think they got sort of, uh, complacent with me in the job 'cause they were happy with me. And see, a new board chair said to me one day, you know, you've been on the job interview for was nine months for a long time, and that person was board chair at the time. I said, yes, and you're the one person that can do something about that.

Mm-hmm. And she was like, what? I said, yeah, you can call a closed session with your colleagues and decide, you know, get rid of me, keep me, you know, go out and recruit. Um, so they did that and appointed me permanently. So that's an important lesson for everybody here.

I also got a CEO job by being appointed as the interim CEO. When you get that opportunity, please remember to act as though you're not the interim CEO and to do a fantastic job. And then you will lose the, the first half of your title. Um, and this happened, you, you mentioned toxicity. This happened under severe toxicity.

I mean, the things that were happening at the county when you were promoted were bad and they were, they made the news. Right. And now you're joining as the CEO you've been using The Pacific Institute stuff, both the curriculum and some of the consulting from Rosie Baker and Kenton Shane. So you've, you've sort of got some of that inside of you and you've got your innate skills as well. But you stepped into a thing where, I mean, how do you fix the kind of situation that you stepped into?

And, and particularly with this interim title, and also you're a woman. There hasn't been a woman doing this at Sacramento County since the office began in 1933. So the, the, the deck was stacked against you. How, what did you do? Well, it was, and it wasn't.

So when, when the board asked me to be interim, I accepted with a couple of conditions. And one of them was I wanted to bring back the retired budget officer to help me through the first, I mean, it's a $6 billion budget. And I'd never done that before. I mean, I had big budgets in departments, um, and that person had retired, um, because of the toxic leadership. And so I said, I want to bring him back short term to help me.

And they said, well, he won't do that. And I says, well, I just, I want to try. And they said yes. And he came back and helped me the first year. It was, he's, he's amazing.

And then I said, the other condition is I want my priority to be culture change and to fix what I can. I said, and I'm going to spend money on it. Um, but that was so important. I didn't want to do it if I couldn't focus on that with their support. So I got a unanimous, five board members saying, yes, that's exactly what we need.

Please do that. Um, so that was helpful. So the, the, the deck was active, get me, 'cause things were so bad and, and someone, a board member asked me, 'cause I had a three year contract and I said, I'm not sure I want to do much more than three years. 'cause I was already thinking about retiring before this came up. And one board member said, can you make a difference in three years?

And I said, this is probably a five year process, but in three years I think I can make a meaningful difference and get it started so that someone else can carry it on. Uh, so I had literally a hundred percent support from the board, which definitely made it easier. Um, the other thing that made it easier was the bar was so low. I mean, the bar was literally on the ground. Mm.

And just stepping over it was huge. And I'll give you a really simple example. When I started, my executive assistant was

on, uh, medical leave. It was during COVID. Uh, so everything was crazy because of COD. And I had all these other secretaries in the office sort of pinch hitting to help me. And it was very difficult because at that level, you really need a person really supporting you.

And, but anyway, it was what it was. And so there was a secretary that I, I literally think I asked her to make a photocopy of something for me and simple, she went and did it. She came back, I thanked her and called her by name as I thanked her, you know, thank you Susie. And later when my assistant came back, she supervised the other secretaries. She says, oh my gosh, this woman literally gushed about the fact that you thanked her and said her name.

But that's how low the bar was. So in some regards, at least within my office, it was easy. It was harder as you went out into the departments and into the community because all the social service people knew me. They were all thrilled that it was me. I had no issue with that.

But when it comes to those programs that I don't know anything about, um, and they're mostly led by men, actually. They were all led by men at the time. Um, I did have to, um, prove myself. Um, but I have to say, I think everyone was so relieved to get some relief because people, even before we started the, um, the mindset curriculum and started working with Rosie and Ken even before that. Yeah.

You know, people noticed that, you know, there was a change. Um, I talked about the budget officer who came back to help me. And he had a bunch of conditions too, which I was able to easily meet them all. And the first time he came onto, and I say the floor, 'cause my office was on the seventh floor, which is the top floor of a building. And literally everyone in the county called it the seventh floor.

And it was like, if you get into the elevator and push seven, they'd be like, and they didn't know who you were. They're like, oh, you're going there. 'cause it was kind of a scary place. Um, but when the budget officer came back to meet with me for the first time to sort of negotiate the contract and all of those things, he came into my office and sat down. He says, I can't believe it.

And I said, what he said, just walking in the front door to reception, that just feels different already. And it had been, I don't know, a couple months since I had been there, but he said, people are talking, they're smiling. Um, you know, there wasn't this, uh, level of fear that had been there before. OE leaders on the call here, please take note and how easy it is to create space for your humans. Right.

So you change the culture. How do you do that? Well, I started with the, um, you know, thought patterns curriculum. 'cause I think that's really important. I started with my executive team and, uh, to get all of us sort of on the same page.

Um, and, and the, the county didn't have, well, they had really old established vision and values that were long wordy things that nobody knew what they were. Mm-hmm. I mean, the board didn't know what they were, the stat nobody knew. Um, and so, you know, we worked to create vision and values. And I think one of the most important things that helped contribute to culture thing is creating values that everybody knows what they are and they know how to demonstrate them.

So we didn't just put words up. We, uh, defined the value. And you have to have a small number of them. I mean, I think we had four, maybe five. Mm-hmm.

Um, and then you define them, but then you go further and describe behaviors that demonstrate that value. Because very often we have values and we don't really know what they mean and what does it look like. And so we spent a lot of time as a team, uh, defining what behaviors would demonstrate integrity, for example. Um, or you know, any of those things. And then we had this whole campaign where we rolled it out

to the entire county. And, you know, we had swag with the values on it. Uh, we created a little program where, um, well actually a big program where staff could dominate their peers, um, for demonstrating a particular value and sharing what it was. And then we had, I can tell it's been a while since I retired 'cause I don't really, I think it was quarterly, we had a, an event in board chambers where the top people that really demonstrated the values in big ways, we recognized them. We gave 'em a little cigarette, a cigarette, a certificate, and we gave them, you know, some swag.

The favorite was the insulated coffee mug that had, you know, the values, uh, listed on those mugs. But, so it was front and center and, and people knew what they were. And, and they got rewarded for demonstrating good values. And the other side of that, 'cause you can't have any of this without accountability. And I would argue you can have really good accountability with compassion and care.

Um, but if people weren't demonstrating the values, it made it easier to have those conversations because the values were so widely known. And so I noticed that you demonstrated this behavior that is inconsistent with this value. How can I help you do that differently next time? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

So that was how we got started. And I, I, you know, a smile and courtesy and kindness literally goes miles with staff miles and miles. Mm-hmm. It sure does. We want to follow people who appear to notice us care about us.

Mm-hmm. Worry about our best interests. The values thing is, um, is really important as well. And I was going to ask you why do we even need values? But you answered the question before I even asked.

Uh, we've got a question that's in from Andy Massey. Hello Andy. Great to see you. And I think you, I heard you say it was a $6 billion organization, guessing it therefore had a whole heap of layers of managers and leaders. If so, how did you get them to buy in to going down a culture change route when there would have, there would've been so many other demands on that budget, or did you have the autonomy to make that call yourself?

Great question. Thanks Andy. Yeah, good question. Thank you. Um, I sort of had the autonomy the board has to approve.

I mean, I had budget authority without getting board approval for about $175,000. And, you know, the overall ticket on this was more than that. But because I said I'll do this if you let me do the culture work, I easily got, uh, budget approved. And it did come out of department budgets. Mm-hmm.

It came out of my budget. Mm-hmm. So it wasn't impacting finances for, uh, departments, so that made it easier to get them to buy in. Mm-hmm. And once I did the, um, curriculum with my team, we also did it with all department heads.

And so I think that was the key that got them really bought in. And, you know, it was interesting 'cause I thought the curriculum is amazing. I mean, it's, as a licensed marriage and family therapist, I've done all kinds of training. This is probably the one and only training that actually gives you such concrete tools. It's just incredible.

Right. But some people see it as initially as soft or fluffy. Um, and you know, I had a bunch of engineers in there. We had attorneys, you know, people that don't necessarily think that way. Um, and I'll never forget like one of the, you know, engineer type directors saying after the first day, oh my gosh, this is the most amazing thing I've ever done.

Mm-hmm. So I got buy-in because of the thought patterns curriculum. I think, and again, I'm going to go back to I was lucky the bar was really low and people were hungry for someone that paid attention to them. And my husband always says, will you have the give a, you know, what factor? Um, because it's really true that I genuinely

cared about them. And you can't fake that. No way. So if you don't care, if you try and fake it, they'll see right through it. Yep.

But if you do, they notice. Mm-hmm. Um, and people said to, you know, even down to line staff, I mean, I had people when I would go to an event or someplace to speak, um, line staff came up and said, we really get that you care about us. Um, and that's really important. Hmm.

It sure is. Where do learn That? Andy, did I answer your full question? I'm not sure I did. Yeah.

Um, you are kind of, um, your ex role is one that we target in the UK quite a lot. And I don't think anybody in the UK in your position that I talk to has such discretion over their budget as you do, what did you say? 175,000? I I think you Well, that's Outta 6 billion. Yeah. But, but your own personal autonomy.

Yes. Now I had to report to the board anytime I executed a contract under my personal authority. Um, and there, there were firewalls around it. You could only do it in certain circumstances. I couldn't just willy nilly, uh, do that.

Um, but again, the board was profoundly supportive. I mean, they knew how bad things were. And so they knew that this wasn't going to be something free or cheap. Uh, so I, again, I was very, very lucky. And I do know that.

Hmm. And just for your information, and Andy is the executive director of The Pacific Institute uk. Oh. And so he, he, you know, he, we partner on all sorts of things and, uh, we're delighted to have you, uh, hear Andy asking questions. Um, what would've happened if you had a board?

I mean, these are elected officials, so they're political and that Oh, yeah. What that means is like they want to keep getting elected and they're listening to the people that show up at their, um, events. So they are like not necessarily all going to agree about everything. No. Um, now I guess in your, uh, the question's coming, in your case, things had gotten so bad prior to your appointment that there was sort of a unilateral understanding.

Our necks are all on the line here. This is our fault. We need this. And so you probably had more of a gathering of, of sort of minds and, and a lot of grace with that political board to do what you wanted. Could you have been as successful if you didn't, if you know they weren't as aligned as they were?

Um, Maybe, maybe not. I mean, that's a really good question. Um, I, I did have unanimous support of the board, which is often rare, uh, because they're all different and they all had different needs. Um, but as you said, were in such, excuse me, in such dire circumstances they did, did support it. I do think there are things I could have and would've done anyway, um, that without spending the money that I spent to do it.

I mean, I would've certainly done, uh, a contract under my authority for the, the curriculum. Um, because I knew that's just a really good start. I, I probably couldn't without their support, have done all the other consultant work I did with Rosie and Kent and Shane. Um, so I think there would've been definitely some progress. Um, but it, it, it wouldn't have been as deep Mm-hmm.

Understood. And when I did this in the department, which I did very deep work with The Pacific Institute in the department, I ran, um, that was my department budget. It came out of my department budget and I did have to sell the board on doing it. And this was before, um, all of the toxicity at the CEO level, um, happened. Um, but I didn't ask for any extra general fund from the board.

I used it within the budget that had already been allocated to me, uh, by just doing, not doing other things. Mm-hmm. Because it was so important. Um, so there are ways, Yeah, there are ways, um, you know, just hearkening back to the, to the note that you made about the engineers and sort of like fluffy stuff at the beginning, the way

that I generally start facilitating any thought patterns is I say, look, I'm going to tell you the answer. The answer is you've got to daydream wildly and vividly about what it is that you want as though you've already achieved it. And now we're going to spend two days because you're not going to believe me. You're going to think that I'm crazy unless we spend these two days. That's literally it.

But it's hard with the engineers sometimes for sure. To get Well. And I did that with this group. I went in and said, um, you're not going to believe this and it's okay. Start skeptical and but keep an open mind.

Yeah. And I never had a single person say this wasn't effective or useful. And I did it in the department and we actually trained, uh, department staff to be facilitators. Mm-hmm. Uh, so that we could, I really wanted to push it deep into the department.

In fact, my goal before I left, which didn't happen, is I wanted it to be part of onboarding. I love that. I wanted employees to know that this is what we're all about. We, we didn't get there. Um, but we had a department of about 2000 employees.

And you know, I think we trained over 500. And I used to go to every session on the first day. And then again, at the end of the day, at the end of the session, the first one to say, be skeptical. It's really okay to use this in your personal life first. 'cause that's literally the easiest way to do it.

For sure. And then it will apply to work eventually. And at the end, I went and I mean, line staff participated in this. And so many people almost tearfully said, we can't believe you spent money on this for us. Mm-hmm.

And again, it was a way of demonstrating that they were valued. Um, and I had people quit as a result of taking it. Yeah. You know, one woman wanted to be a science fiction writer and she quit her job and did it good. And I heard stories of people losing weight, getting out of debt, quitting smoking.

Um, again, not related to work, but I would argue that when people are happy in their lives and feel good about themselves, they do way better. Yeah. At work. And if it, if it leads them to a different job than you've given them a great gift and they're going to be really effective there, they would've been less effective had they stayed. Right.

Absolutely. Abso some woman called me crying and apologizing for leaving because of this program. I said, don't be sorry. Yeah. I said, this is awesome for you.

Yeah. You go live your best life. Absolutely agree. Great question here from Cheryl Hicks. Hi Anne.

Can you talk about what happened with the executive teamwork? What changed and what were the results from the effort for them as a team, as well as for their teams? Thanks, Cheryl. Good question. Thank you, Cheryl.

Well, I think the biggest thing for the executive team is we, I mean, remember I was brand new coming into this team that already existed. And I'm talking about the CEO job right now. And it really got us aligned. Um, because aside from the curriculum, which is really important, were using the same language. It really helped us with goal setting.

And, you know, what, what our vision was for us as a team. Um, we spent some time with Rosie, particularly on this one, where, um, she actually pushed us into knowing each other better. Um, and I learned things about every single one of them over the course of a couple of days that I never would've known otherwise. And when, you know, I, I'm going to say someone's heart or their soul, it's so much easier to deal with them because everyone is going to make a mistake. I mean, we're all human.

I make mistakes, they make mistakes, whatever. But when you have some knowledge about where their, what their mindset is and where they're coming from, it just made an enormous difference. And I think as a result of that, they all had tremendous compassion for one another. And, you know, some people annoy you from time to time. Right.

That's normal. But when you understand where that annoying behavior comes from, it's just so much easier to tolerate.

Um, and it allowed space for us to talk about our differences. I mean, one of my favorite parts of the week in that job was the Wednesday morning meetings with my full executive team. Mm-hmm. Because we would grapple with, I mean, you can only imagine the issues that we had to grapple with. And we didn't always agree, but we talked things out.

We agreed to a united front when went out to the people. Um, and we laughed. I mean, we had so much fun and we poked at each other playfully. Um, I'll never forget one time, one of the men, I can't even remember what he said to me, but he really poked at me and I started cracking up because it was so funny. And he went, oh my God, I can't believe I just said that to my boss.

I said, it's totally okay. I mean, this was a space, it was a safe space. Um, and it, uh, it, I do think it really made a difference. We had, we had a lot of fun in that team in spite of the, uh, programmatic fiscal, I mean, all the challenges that were facing. It was fun.

Mm. It makes me want to ask you about, about how you had healthy conflicts. Uh, what, how could you, you know, when you disagreed, uh, how did you disagree? And then when you all agreed, did that ever make you nervous that there wasn't enough conflict in the room? Uh, no, because there was enough conflict that I, I just didn't feel like people were hiding.

You know what I mean? I mean, it was, um, you know, when there's never any conflict that can be a little troubling. Right. Because what are people not saying? Right.

But again, it was a space where people said what they thought and, and I tried really hard to sort of not saying any, say anything first. 'cause once I speak, they're like, okay, well that's what we're going to do. And I didn't want that to happen. So I let the dialogue happen, you know, between them as much as I could. Um, and they would say, oh, well did you think about this?

So they would ask questions as a way of dealing with differences. Um, and I didn't have to. Why did They do that? Why, how did they learn that? How did they, why?

Well, some of it, I think they're just good at it. I mean, I don't know how they learned that. I mean, we didn't talk specifically about doing that. Mm-hmm. Um, well, I probably modeled that a bit because that's the way I tried to get information.

If someone came to me with some idea or some issue and I thought it was just crazy, you know, I would say, well, tell me more. How did you come to this recommendation? What is it that you, you know, are trying to achieve? And on and on. So I did.

That was what I did. So maybe I modeled that and didn't even know it. Yeah. Um, but that is how they, uh, manage conflict is by asking each other questions. And usually we could come to consensus.

Um, and if we didn't, rarely did I have to pull the I'm the CEO trigger and say, this is what we're going to do. Um, I can't even remember a time when I did that. I think I probably did. But, um, but because there was dialogue and people felt heard it was okay to move forward. Mm-hmm.

Gotcha. You are no longer the CEO. What in the world would cause you to leave? Uh, well, it was a lot of things. Um, during my tenure there, I was diagnosed with a pretty significant health issue.

Hmm. Um, that got addressed. But for a year I really, really struggled with it. Um, and we had very, very tense relationships with the biggest city in the county. Mm-hmm.

Particularly around homelessness and homelessness. No matter what we do, it's never enough. Mm-hmm. And I know that, but I also know there's x amount of dollars. And, um, so we, I'm going to go so far as to say fought with the city a fair amount.

Um, and I had a very tense relationship with, um, one of the council members. Um, and it was, it wore on me quite a bit. But the other thing is I really felt like we had, that I had gotten the county to, I wouldn't have left if I didn't feel like we had got the county to a good enough place to leave.

Um, 'cause we had, we really came a very, very long way in three short years. Um, so that was, uh, what made it okay for me to retire. And now you look back into the organization, 'cause I'm sure it's almost impossible for you not to 'cause of all the friends and colleagues that you've got that you meet with all the time, how are they doing? How is the culture that you crafted? Um, is it growing?

Is it, is it, what's interesting about, is there anything disappointing about it? You know, what do you see? Well, there's both good things and thumb disappointment as well. Anytime there's a new leader, um, you know, they want to legitimately make their own mark, of course. And, um, and I recommended the, the current CEO Oh good.

And, um, and he is doing a good job. He's doing things differently. Um, I don't think it's eroding the culture, but he's not as, um, I don't think he's in, is as intentional about, you know, moving the needle forward. But you're right, I still, I mean, I've seen two board members this week. You know, I've had lunch with a staff person this week.

There's a few people that I literally get together with monthly. Um, and so I do hear what's going on. Mostly people are very satisfied. Good. And people are always going to sort of come to you, my experience anyway with like Yeah.

It's not, you know, they love you and it's things change. And so they're, they're going to come to you with the sadness of like their They do. Yeah. They, yeah, they do. And, you know, and I just remind them 'cause they're like, you know, it's not you.

And I said, well, of course not. I said, but, you know, you have to give everyone a chance. And they are, I mean, mm. He is very well received and well liked. Mm-hmm.

Um, and I hear little things, but it's mostly, mostly just people didn't want me to go. Yeah. Yeah. You know, people talk about, um, this funny word, legacy. Mm.

And, uh, you're not, you're not full-time employed anywhere now. Right. No part-time consulting. Right. Right.

So when you think about you, your, I know you're also a modest person and you probably don't like this question, but talk about your legacy as this, as the former CEO of this entire county. Well, oh gosh. This is a little emotional for me because I just do care so much about the county and the people. But, um, and it is hard for me to talk about my legacy, but I think I've had a couple of people that work there share with me that, um, that the, the culture that I created is mostly still there. And that it made a huge difference for them.

That people feel safe and people feel supported. And so I really think that my legacy is around creating an environment that kept people safe, that people feel safe. I've had just too many people, executive leadership, you know, and some line staff telling me that, that just made a huge difference in their life. And so that is probably, um, the most important thing for me. That people feel safe at work.

And, and again, not to minimize accountability, 'cause that's a big piece of it, but I mean, I had to fire people and I had to, um, hold people accountable. But you do it dare say I ca with care and love. And, um, and I think I did that. I just want to tell you that for every one person that comes to you and tells you, gives you that feedback about how important your leadership was, there are a hundred that feel that way that aren't talking. Well, thank you.

You know, I am coaching, um, a, a mid-level leader within the county. Nice. And, um, she said to me just recently, she said, you have no idea your impact. It still kind of reverberates throughout the county.

Um, and that just made me feel good about what I did. Yeah. You should tell me, is your father still alive? Mm-hmm. And how long ago did he pass?

Uh, 10 years. He, he never saw me get this job, or Yeah. I could tell you he'd be precisely proud of you the way that you described him as, as a child, right. I mean, you did exactly what he wanted you to do. Yeah.

And even when he was alive, I had certainly lower level positions, but I was in the newspaper a lot because of cuts and, you know, all kinds of stuff. And he literally, that's when people still took the paper, paper. But he literally cut out every article and showed his friends and, you know, on and on. So yeah, he, he would be, he was and would be very proud. And my mom never got it either because she had Alzheimer's.

Mm-hmm. Um, but I know they were still proud. Of course. And you mentioned your husband a couple times as somebody who is influential in your life too. And I'm sure that in some, some ways he's filled, he's filled in there, right?

Yes. He talks about me sometimes too much and brags and, um, sometimes he always says, what a good leader you are. And I says, well, sometimes it seems like you love me because I'm a leader. He says, well, no, of course. I mean, that's part of it, but there's all these other things too.

But he is my biggest, uh, cheerleader support. And he had to listen. I mean, when I decided to take the job, I said, you know, this impacts you too, because of my hours. And just the sort of constant, uh, being on, and, you know, he listened to me many evenings sort of talk through things I was grappling with. And, um, he actually learned how to not give me advice and just listen and let me come to it on my own.

That was kind of hard for him. But, um, yeah, no, he's been a great, great supporter. Well, Ann, I can't thank you enough on behalf of The Pacific Institute and everyone that's here in this room listening and all the people who will watch this recording for spending this hour with us. Um, everyone who is listening should know that Ann is really a friend of The Pacific Institute. And in that regard, without, uh, asking her permission, I'm sure she would be delighted to speak with anyone, um, about her journey.

Um, and if she might be of any help for you, Anne, any, any final remarks? Well, first of all, I would love to talk to any of you. Good morning. Happy Friday. Happy One second.

There you go. Gotcha. Um, I would be more than happy to talk to any of you because this is something that I am so passionate about and it, it just, it actually brings me joy to even talk about it because it's just so important. Um, and I think so many organizations struggle with this very thing and, you know, don't know what to do. I didn't know what to do.

Um, I had taken the curriculum and I reached out, you know, for help and I was very lucky to get Rosie. Mm-hmm. And Kent and Shane, they are absolutely amazing. I consider all three of them good friends. Um, but they helped me immensely because I didn't know what to do.

And that's not uncommon. Mm-hmm. So if you don't know what to do, don't feel bad. Nobody does. No one does.

Exactly. Yeah. You, uh, grow into it though. Yes, you do. You do.

And it's really been a pleasure talking with all of you, and thank you for your, your time and attention. Um, it's been great. Thank you Ann Edwardss. We so appreciate you and your time. Kevin, any final announcements before we say goodbye?

No, just, uh, dropped in the chat that we have another executive impact coming up next month. And, uh, for, for us, this is our last free event of the year, so happy New Year everybody. Thank you for spending your time and attention with us, and thank you. That was amazing. We learned a lot.

We appreciate you being here and spending time. Richard, wonderful job of playing host. Uh, we'll all stick around if there's any questions, but, uh, if there are not, we'll let everybody go just a couple minutes early this time and wish you a very happy holidays from all of us at The Pacific Institute, and we hope to see you at future events. Yes, Happy holidays. Thanks again.

Great. Happy holidays. Yes, Happy Valuables. Thank

you. Kevin, you don't have any outgoing music for us. Uh, well, you know, hold please. Okay. And where are you going for the holidays?

Uh, down the street to my daughter's house. Nice. Excellent. I'm very fortunate that she lives about four minutes away by car, and so with she and her husband three grandsons. Oh, how fun.

Oh, Just delightful. Absolutely delightful. That is wonderful. Yeah. And then they asked me recently, because I do this every year, but the little one who's eight said, Nona, they call me Nona.

Nona, is Santa going to come to your house for our stockings again? And I said, yes, of course, sunny. So you'll have to come over and see what's in your stocking at Nona's house. Yeah, yeah. In fact, Santand I just got off the phone and it's going to be a good year, honey.

Yeah, yeah. So it's, they're a lot of fun. That's great. Lots of fun. Good.

Well, if there are no other questions, they appear not to be. Thanks everyone for sticking around, and thank you so much for your time. Oh, thank you. It was fun. Yeah.

Happy holiday. All right. Have a happy holiday. Bye-bye. Take care.

Bye.